Peter Zaremba: Welcome.

The Fleshtones are based in New York City, so some people might find it an odd situation that you're signed direct to an Australian record label. Can you fill us in on how that happened?

Keith Streng: Right, right-we were hanging out at the Pyramid Club on the Lower East Side, just staying up all night, you know, talking about music and whatever, and The Fleshtones at that point were still looking for a record deal without much success. And Dave [Faulkner of The Hoodoo Gurus] had all the demo tapes that we were submitting to whatever record companies, and he was just going on how he loved the tapes, and how-you know-"this is great stuff." And I said to Dave-I looked at him, and I said-"You should be an A&R man, that would solve everything." And he looks at me just very straight ahead, and just says, "Well, I am." And I almost fall off my bar stool laughing, you know, thinking he's kidding me. But he was serious. And he said, "Look, you know, we could probably do something, even if you have to come half way around the world, if you don't mind." I said, "No, I don't mind, and I don't think the other guys will, and we should make a record and, you know, get The Fleshtones making records again." And that's why we're here.

The Fleshtones and The Hoodoo Gurus sound like they've had a mutual admiration society going for around a decade now. Can you recall the first meeting with The Hoodoo Gurus?

KS: I was home, you know, in the kitchen and the phone rings, and it's the Hoodoo Gurus' road manager. I mean, I knew these guys were coming into town, right? And I was planning on seeing them at Maxwell's-there was like two gigs-but they were playing at CBGBs that night, and I wasn't gonna see them that night. Anyway, he says "Hey, you ought to come down to the show, these guys wanna meet you." And I'm thinking, like, these guys wanna meet me? And he says, "Yeah, they want you to play with them as well." And I'm thinking, well I've never even heard these guys. So I run over to Peter Zaremba's house 'cause I know he has a Hoodoo Gurus album Stoneage Romeo [sic], and I quickly like, you know, listen to it with the guitar in my hand and I figured out, like, "Leilani" and a few other tracks. And I show up at the gig and the road manager-who I kinda knew, this guy Louis Tropier- takes me back stage and I shake hands and I'm talking to these guys, and they're all excited about being in New York, and they said, "Well, you should do the encore, we'll play 4 or 5 songs"-I forget which other ones we did-and, you know, I was on stage with The Gurus, and I think a few other members of The Fleshtones at that point: Marek Pakulski, and I think Bill was there. And we jammed and the audience loved it. It was packed and it was a real exciting evening. And ever since then I've, you know, always thought they were really a great rock & roll band.

The Fleshtones have played for a number of years; they've made a number of great records. For people who are just discovering the band for the first time with the Powerstance album, can you fill them in on life before Powerstance?

PZ: Well, I can run down. Let's see-working backwards: Fleshtones vs. Reality: You Be the Judge, 1987; Speed Connection, Part One and Part Two, 1985, live in Paris; Hexbreaker!, 1983, I believe. Keith?

KS: Yeah, I think you got that one.

PZ: Roman Gods, 1981.

One thing I've read about The Fleshtones is that if you cut to the core of the band, you'll find that they stand for fun, truth, and tradition in rock & roll. Could you elaborate a little bit about the "hidden meanings" of that statement?

PZ: Fun, truth, and tradition in rock & roll . . .

KS: Honesty, also.

PZ: Mm-hmm.

KS: Because we believe in what we're doing, and rock & roll-good rock & roll- should be honest and from the heart.

PZ: And top value for your entertainment dollar. I believe very firmly in this . . .

KS: Never be contrived.

PZ: Yes.

The band is going to be in Australia in a few months to play live. Which other Fleshtones will people be seeing?

KS: Well, we got our drummer. "Lucky Bill."

PZ: One of the "Big Three," actually. "Handsomest Man in Rock & Roll." And a great drummer and a great guy.

KS: Yeah, really. And he's gonna love it here, I know that. Peter and I have been just saying, like, "Wait until we get him down to the Bondai Hotel, or . . ."

PZ: Where he can cook his own steak!

KS: . . . and have a beer, and he'll have a smile so big!

PZ: Yeah, he'll have a good time. And we have our new bass player.

KS: Yeah, Ken Fox. And this guy's gonna be around for a while, he's gonna go for a Pin, you know. He'll be here for years. If he's lucky he'll get his Five-Year Pin first, and then we'll see what happens. Anyway, he was formerly from Jason and The Scorchers. He's always been an admirer of The Fleshtones; he learned how to play bass to our records-or so he told me-but listening to him, I believe him.

The Fleshtones have always stood out in terms of stage presentation, as a band with a fantastic live show. The majority of bands just tend to get up there and re-create their songs, and there's no sense of actually entertaining like there was with so many great Sixties bands. Do you feel like you're actually keeping a tradition alive?

PZ: We're not only doing that, we're entertaining ourselves.

KS: Right, right-when you're up there you have to have fun. If you're having fun the audience realizes it, and they have fun, they go home feeling good, and want to come back and see you play 'cause they are thoroughly entertained.

PZ: I know that I usually leave the club, or whatever, and I know the band does, feeling good about what we did, and I speak to a lot of people in other bands, and it's like they have this weird sort-of complaining, or something-you know, why don't they go off and be a plumber, or something, which is an honest way to make a living, really, you know, rather than go up on stage and do something which you somehow don't think you want to do, or pretend you want to do, or something. You got to go up there and have a good time, and if it's not fun, you know, maybe do something else.

I've read some great quotes over the years about The Fleshtones in papers like The Village Voice from New York, and the New York Times. Can you remind us of some of the best of those?

PZ: Oh, one was "The Fleshtones are the type of band that you go to see Saturday night, and wake up on someone else's lawn Sunday morning."

KS: Yeah.

PZ: And the Times once said, "They're a band that changed people's lives, some for the better, and some for the worse." I kinda like that, too. People that like the band tend to follow us a bit, you know, and stick with what we do, and they like to kind of participate in what we're doing.

KS: Right. That's part of the idea with our shows.

It seems like there's a lot of audience involvement in a Fleshtones show.

PZ: The more the better! Sometimes, though, you got to keep them out from under foot, and from destroying our equipment, which does happen occasionally. But we like to keep going from one song to the next, as well, and certain people do try to sing the songs, and stuff, and that's not . . .

KS: Sometimes better than us, but, you know . . .

PZ: Sometimes. Very often not as good.

KS: Right.

PZ: We know the words. Usually.

OK, let's find out a bit about the songs on Powerstance. First off there's "Armed and Dangerous," which sounds like a classic Fleshtones rave-up.

PZ: Actually, it's a little different than some of our other songs. This isn't the classic kind of Fleshtones rave-up; it's more of a, for us, kind of a slow rocker. Solid rocker, I guess. It's a little different. What do you think, Keith?

KS: I don't think we've done anything like this on a record before [chuckles]. I guess I was listening to some bands from southeast [U.S.], and just sort of came up with this kind of groove.

PZ: I guess lyrically it's kinda based on certain incidents that have occurred in our "off-stage" lives.

Actually, while The Fleshtones as a complete entity have not played a show in Australia, both of you played one night at the Hopeton Hotel in Sydney under the name of The Girken Milkshakes, with all of the members of The Hoodoo Gurus. This was while you were in Australia mixing Powerstance. One of the songs you played that night was "Still I'm Thirsty." Can you tell us a bit about that one?

KS: [laughs] Well, it's a great song! I don't know, what can I tell you about it. It was another case of I had the song title, and I had music, and I just said, you know, "Hey, Peter, what do you think of this idea for a song 'Still I'm Thirsty' but let's not make it about like, you know, that I'm thirsty for a beer-you know, let's make it a lot more than that. Thirsty for things you want in life, and more."

PZ: And sort of the impossibility of really being satisfied. I mean, you shouldn't be really, right, or else you'd . . . stop?

KS: Stop existing, I don't know.

PZ: A lot of people say. . . I mean I'm not gonna say that we're, you know, great songwriters in any stretch of the imagination-I mean there are some rock & roll people who are wonderful lyricists. But on the other hand, The Fleshtones aren't quite the lightweights that some people make us out to be.

KS: Not all our stuff is just like, you know, "Louie Louie"-even though "Louie Louie" is classic.

PZ: Yes . . .

KS: You know, we go beyond and do other things that still tie into the whole "Super Rock" thing that we're into [to PZ], right?

PZ: Yeah, I think that there's a few glimpses into the souls of The Fleshtones on all of our records.

KS: Sometimes we get "deeper."

And "Waiting for a Message." Keith, you should explain that one.

KS: My viewpoint is that The Fleshtones have waited too damn long, because whoever the heck was supposed to be our "guiding force"-which is normally called your management- which I won't get into any name calling . . . But anyway that song is kinda directly about what we were doing and just waiting and waiting and waiting, and hopefully the wait is over. But the song is a good song.

PZ: It's kind of our Easybeats side, a little bit.

KS: Yeah.

PZ: And also I might say that, until this interview right now, it never occurred to me that this song had anything to do with us! And that it's so apparent . . .

KS: I guess . . .

PZ: . . . that we're waiting . . .

KS: Unless I'm just out of my mind.

PZ: Well . . .

KS: But anyway, the wait is over, just about.

PZ: The wait is over, folks, and in fact you don't have to wait any longer.

KS: And it's called Powerstance. The wait is over.

PZ: [quietly] That's right.

"Let it Rip" is yet another great track on Powerstance. What's the story with that track?

PZ: Keith, that might be the first, really the first, song written for this body of music.

KS: That was probably like really the first post-new vs. Reality song. "Let it Rip." I guess it went through quite a few lyrical changes.

PZ: Sure has gone through a lot of changes.

KS: But the title always remained the same, and just the general idea of what it should be about, or whatever.

PZ: That's kind of our tip-of-the-hat to Hank Williams.

KS: Right. We meant it to be "country." It's our version of country music.

PZ: Yes!

"3 Fevers" sounds like it would be a great track to be performed live. When you're working on songs, do you road test them first and then make the record, or is it the other way around?

KS: It's like any good car, you better know what gear you're in when you're doing it!

PZ: That's right.

KS: So, yeah, "3 Fevers," you have three fevers and three gears, you know?

PZ: That's right. It's sort of about, again, growing up in north Queens/Flushing/White Stone-area in the late-Sixties, early-Seventies when there was absolutely nothing to do. And that song was actually about-half about us, and a little bit about a neighbor of mine who was taken away in an ambulance.

"Living Legends" was the title of a compilation album of your early material for the IRS label [released in 1989]. It's also the title of a song on Powerstance. Are we talking at the moment to Living Legends?

PZ: Kind of. In all modesty, I think we can say that. Considering our achievements over the years, most of which have gone unnoticed by the world at large, I think, yes, we have become Living Legends. And that's not to say that we're going to become static, that we're gonna rest on our laurels, that we're gonna become, you know, live in some gilded kind of, you know, kind of like a Jack Nicholson-kind-of-a-thing, we're not gonna coast. Not one bit! Keith came to me and he said, "Let's do a song called 'Living Legends'." I thought the idea was preposterous.

KS: He thought that maybe people would think The Fleshtones have become ego-maniacs, out of control in their own minds!

PZ: That's right. But then when I . . .

KS: Maybe they're right!

PZ: When I thought about it I became very comfortable with the idea . . .

KS: After a few Valium hits!

PZ: . . . and so we dug up a bunch of old riffs-(Yes.)-a few riffs, some of which reach back to the very inception of The Fleshtones. I must mention the song "Girlology," one of the first songs we ever wrote, contributed to the chorus of the song. And there was another song that we did called- what was it, "Dope Fiend". . . or . . .?

KS: [laughing] No, it was called "Drug Addict"!

PZ: "Drug Addict"! A song called "Drug Addict."

KS: This is a song we presented to IRS Records as a demo tape, and then we played it for Miles Copeland [head of IRS] in our rehearsal space because he wanted to hear the new material live. And we played "Drug Addict."

PZ: The song was rejected.

KS: He just looked at us and said, "You're out of your . . . you're crazy . . . you're out of your mind." And that was the end of "Drug Addict." It was supposed to be an anti-drug song.

PZ: It was an anti-drug song, believe us!

KS: So, we meant well. But anyway, it's a good riff and it wound up in "Living Legends."

PZ: Right, it's better off there. So a lot's gone into "Living Legends," mind you.

OK. The nest track on Powerstance is "I Can Breathe." Tell us a little bit about that one.

PZ: "I Can Breathe" is, again, a song where I think Keith had the music, and also had the title. Right?

KS: Yeah, sure. I mean it's one of those things where I went back to my riff catalog- you know, "Oh, need something more psychedelic." This one to me is like the deeper, moodier track on the record. That's one side of us I love, like when we do something like "Shadowline" [from Roman Gods]. This is kind of like, somewhat in the same vein.

PZ: I also attempted to rewrite this song, and give it the title "Ship Has Sailed." And thank goodness Keith stopped me.

KS: Well, Dave and I loved the lyrics so much, you know. Dave had the demo tape. I thought the idea of I can breathe and just the idea of the lyrics, and the whole thing just made sorta sense. You know, "leave it, it's great, it's fine."

"Mod Teepee" is another track on Powerstance. And that, Keith, apparently dates back to, or is in some way involved with, your relationship with The Pyramid Club in New York City, which is a bar unlike anything people in Australia would have seen.

KS: Right . . . .

PZ: The Pyramid Club-let's say this is strictly on a professional level, strictly a musical relationship . . .

KS: Right . . . .

PZ: . . . with the fabulous Pyramid Club. And Keith was booking a special night, and he decided to call it . . . "The . . .

KS: "The Mod Teepee."

PZ: [mock curiosity] Why, Keith? That's a strange name.

KS: Why, uh . . . .

PZ: Is it like a tent?

KS: Uh, yes, it's a tent where, like, Indians can go on a reservation on their night off when they having nothing to do and they want to get down and get with it. So, they go and psychedelicize themselves at The Mod Teepee.

PZ: [continuing mock interview-ese] Why don't you mention some of the bands that you booked for "The Mod Teepee." Wasn't one of them The Died Pretty [from Australia]?

KS: Um . . . yes, it was! You know, the ironic things was the band was booked, and I wanted it, but we had to go out of town and play, so I was pretty upset about it. But The Died Pretty came through-of course all my favorite American bands, like, you know, Barrence Whitfield and The Savages, The Lyres, um . . .

PZ: Did you ever manage to shoehorn your "pet group" at that time, The Smithereens?

KS: My "pet group." Right. This was . . . I was the only person in New York City, apparently, who would book The Smithereens. Everybody disliked them , and wouldn't give them a booking.

PZ: I hated them.

KS: And I thought they were a pretty good "pop" group, you know, as far as you could take "pop." And I gave them a show.

PZ: And the thing is, though, you know, through you, Keith, I have to admit you made me see the light, and I do like The Smithereens now. So I'm a better man for it. And that's why "Mod Teepee" is good for you.

"House of Rock," I gather, is a song where you got the title first, and then wrote the lyrics to fit the song.

KS: [mock indignation] Who told you that?

PZ: Yes. We got the title of that first, and I came over to Keith's apartment and I said, "Keith . . ."

KS: " . . . we're gonna dig way down . . ."

PZ: " . . . and live in a House of Rock."

KS: " . . . and live in a House of Rock." And I said, "Good, I've got the riff!"

PZ: Right, so he . . .

KS: The "House of Rock Riff."

PZ: Between the riff and the title, we had most of it, and then I just had to, like, flesh it out with some trashy lyrics. But actually . . . . People say, Oh, The Fleshtones [mumbles] oh, they're junk, oh, 'sha-la-la'. And actually that song is really about the way I was feeling about a lot of things right then, and I think it's quite sensitive, and touching.

KS: Yes, it brings a tear.

PZ: The Fleshtones have feelings, too.

Let's talk about another fine moment on Powerstance: "Irresistible."

PZ: That's a song that went through many, many changes, and it's more . . .

KS: Right, it started out as "Do the Right Thing."

PZ: Right.

KS: "The Right Thang."

PZ: The movie [Spike Lee's Do the Right Thing, 1989] came out, and we said, "Wait a minute, we can't have a song with the same title." And I went on a vacation and, as often as it happens, my mind starts to wander back to The Fleshtones, no matter where I go in the world, and I was in a small bay called Acumel, in Mexico, and looking at the waves I started thinking about the song, and it turned into "Irresistible." As a matter of fact, I couldn't get it out of my head for the next three days, until I got back to New York and called up Keith and said, "Hey, I know what we can do with this song. It's now 'Irresistible'."

The final track on Powerstance is "Candy Ass," which I understand is a term of derision for some people.

KS: Yeah.

PZ: "Candy Ass." Keith, tell 'em about "Candy Ass."

KS: Tell them about "Candy Ass," right, right. It was a long time ago-it was part of my childhood, actually-when I was up skiing. We were supposed to go down this one ski run, and my uncle called my father a "candy ass" 'cause my father didn't want to go down this one particular run. And that always stuck out in my mind for all these years. I thought it was a great expression, for some reason.

PZ: Although, it became related to our music, I think, one night at The Pyramid, again-

KS: Right, I guess I was talking about somebody who previously working with us-

PZ: As a bass player.

KS: -and I called him, I just called him, a "candy ass."

PZ: A gosh-darned [whispers] candy ass. [laughs]

KS: [laughs] And people laughed.

PZ: Some people think we're candy asses, too. We can hold our own, though.

KS: Everybody's got their candied side to them.

PZ: Right. It's all right, it's all right you "candy asses" out there. The Fleshtones are on your side.

KS: We got a song for you, too.

So, why did you guys decide on Powerstance as an album title?

KS: A person who works with us all the time, and a good friend, Miles Barken, he said-we were, still, had all these album titles, and now we're sick of those, and he said, "Why don't you guys call it Powerstance?" We looked at him and we said, "Genius." 'Cause we do that in our shows, people know it already, you know, whoever knows us.

PZ: I'd like to say that Miles Barken is one person that a college education hasn't hurt.

If you guys were asked to review Powerstance, what exactly would you say about the record?

PZ: "It might be the best since, uh, Vs. Reality. Probably better, really. [laughter] Quite professional. Crisp tunes. Good production."

KS: I'd probably just say, "Well-executed Super Rock."

PZ: "We find this album highly entertaining, good fun at parties, I believe, and also for those pensive moments when you're alone, at home, after school or work, you could put this one on and, dare I may say it, I think the radio programmers might have a little bit of a nugget here. So we've told you first.So we've told you first."

For people listening now, can we have a demonstration of a "powerstance?"

[laughter]

PZ: Yes. Execute!

KS: Execute!

[silence]

Beautiful. You have just heard a "powerstance" from The Fleshtones. You guys are veterans of the New York club scene. You must have played a lot of shows in legendary clubs, like CBGBs.

KS: Back in the late-Seventies we used to do "Fleshtones Wild Weekends" at CBGBs.

PZ: Yes. That was ten years before, when we were hanging out at CBGBs. And, actually, it was the sight of our first professional show.

KS: Our first Drill Site.

PZ: Yes, that was the first Drill Site. Then after that we sort of became residents at Max's Kansas City-

KS: Right.

PZ: -and its was at Max's Kansas City where we were discovered by the fabulous Marty Thau.

KS: Well, really Allen Vega. Allen Vega of Suicide.

PZ: Right. And it's always been that way, other recording artists have always been the one that have always sort of "steered us," you know, it hasn't been lawyers, it hasn't been high-powered-ha, ha-management. It's always been other artists.

Do you remember some of the other bands you played with in the Max's and CBGBs days?

KS: Our first weekend gig was at Max's Kansas City, sometime like '78. And we were opening for Wayne County, who wanted us on the bill-.

PZ: [over KS] Right, a bunch of handsome boys like us.

KS: -Wayne County saw us and said, like, "Oh, ooh-la-la, they should play with me," you know? So we wound up on one of those Friday or Saturday nights. That was our first big show and it was successful, I remember.

Did you play with bands people in Australia might know, like Blondie?

PZ: We didn't play on stage with Blondie, although when we did our 2X5 record [Marty Thau Presents 2X5] in 1979, Blondie played with us, sorta, because the drummer on that particular record for The Fleshtones ["Shadowline" and "F-f-fascination"] is Clem Burke, and the keyboard player's Jimmy Destri [both from Blondie]. So that's kind of, sort of a Blondie/ Fleshtones sort of a thing.

What was it like in New York at that time? We have a very mythologized idea that it was the most vibrant place on earth.

PZ and KS: It was!

KS: It was the saving grace of, like, rock & roll in America at that point, 'cause everything else was so submerged in who knows what, you know, that when CBGBs, you know, mid-Seventies scene, The Ramones and, well the bands we're talking about-I mean, it was a light, it was a guiding light.

PZ: It was excitement all the time. The Ramones, you could see them playing with Television and Blondie third on the bill-who really weren't that exciting anyway, but-we could read in the papers about Handsome Dick Manitoba [from The Dictators] being knocked out by Wayne County-or did he knock out Wayne County?

KS: No, Wayne County knocked Handsome Dick out. It was something about Dick accusing Wayne County of being a drag queen, something about being a homosexual, and these accusations drove Wayne inane and he picked up a mike stand and decked the Handsome One.

PZ: And then there was an incredible show for the Wayne County Defense Fund, and I'll never forget the poster, it said "More stars [speaking in unison with KS] than there are in heaven."

So The Fleshtones have always been predominantly about attitude, as far as I'm concerned.

KS: That's why we call our new record Powerstance.

PZ: A good attitude.

KS: Attitude. Living Legends, Daddy. Super Rock.

And did that attitude come from the Punk bands of that era, or are we talking bands of the Fifties and Sixties, and their attitude?

PZ: It wasn't just from the bands. Those bands sort of were crystallizing something that everyone was thinking, you know, people were sick of the hippies, people were sick of the guitar virtuosos, people were sick of the Elton Johns.

Still talking about attitude, did The Fleshtones' overall approach to rock & roll come out of the punk era, or from things well before that?

PZ: Right. Leather jackets and haircuts, people wearing skinny black ties and black shirts . . .

KS: No, our idea of the punk era is like mid-Sixties, when, you know, they had all these bands out of whatever basement, whatever suburb, or whatever garage, and whatever part of wherever, you know, just trying to imitate The Beatles.

PZ: Right.

KS: That's attitude. Punk attitude.

PZ: Those were punks.

KS: And we can identify with that, because we're from a suburb and we kind of rehearsed in a basement for a while.

PZ: Right.

The British Invasion bands seem like a crucial influence on The Fleshtones-The Stones, The Beatles, and so forth.

PZ: I think so.

KS: That was just one part.

PZ: Yeah, that's one of them, though. The Yardbirds, stuff like that. White kids trying to play R&B, yeah, why not? That really was an influence on what we were doing.

Gentlemen, what about a potted history of what you've done before: we're talking about ten years of recorded music and live shows that have led up to Powerstance.

PZ: Oh, you know, we could talk to you about a bunch of albums that you've probably never heard before: Roman Gods, 1981; Hexbreaker, 1983; Fleshtones Vs. Reality, 1987. In between that, Speed Connection, 1 and 2, live in Paris, 1985, and even last year- 1990-the final release of our first LP recorded in 1978. Figure that one. And of course in the mean time we've done television with such luminaries as Ian McKellen doing a Shakespearean sonnet number 20-do you know that?

KS: Yeah, we were on Fifteen Minutes, the Andy Warhol show; it was the last show ever made, and it figures because we were on it, you know? It was right before he passed away.

The Fleshtones have a reputation as a great, great live band, but there must be two or three shows that have stood out over the course of your career as truly awesome Fleshtones performances.

KS: The gig that stands out probably most in our minds is, like, when we first hit Europe, our first gig in Europe was at the Le Palace, in Paris-

PZ: Yes.

KS: -I would say 1981 with the release of Roman Gods. And when we got over there we were rock stars, I mean, we couldn't believe this, we figured we were playing like three hundred people-we were playing to, like, around, I don't know, two thousand people and it was broadcasted over national French television, you know.

PZ: And the show didn't ever really end. On our last song we just brought everyone out onto this boulevard, and everyone followed us singing and chanting, and there were a bunch of gendarmes lining the street with sub-machine guns, holding the crowd back, and as we approached them we said, "Peace, baby," and marched right through them and took over the whole intersection.

KS: Yeah and we tied up traffic, I mean, there was traffic jams, and it was in the news, and, I mean, Oh my God.

PZ: We also had a very nice show that I remember with The Dream Syndicate and The Hoodoo Gurus-

KS: Oh, yeah.

PZ: -in Parais, in Greece, the seaport to Athens. Very, very nice show. That was a good one, uh . . . . But there's so many shows, little special things-

KS: Special moments.

PZ: -that we can remember. Even our little Girken Milkshakes show with The Hoodoo Gurus.

KS: That was a special moment. I felt good on stage.

Maybe you could tell us a little about The Pyramid Club; it seems one of the most unique bars around the world, and certainly unlike anything you'd encounter in Australia.

PZ: Actually, it's unlike anything you'd encounter anywhere else in the world.

KS: Yeah, I mean, it's too bad The Pyramid Club. I mean it kind of, like, short-circuited about a year ago because of management changes but I'll tell you, I guess it started around 1981, and it really did a good seven years, or eight years or whatever, just being a great, great club. It was such a mix of such New York sensibility-I mean artists, musicians, drag queens, bikers, you name it, would go to this club, and the whole thing would just groove. And it was exciting every night, and there's something always happening entertainment-wise, Lower East Side-type entertainment, every night that made it just so much fun. I really miss it.

PZ: Yeah. It was nice the way everyone was sort of like, The Fleshtones were totally accepted by the-embraced, in more ways than one-by this crowd, and little things that we did like The Full Time Men or The Love Delegation derived from this club. Even some big things, like Dee-Lite, is basically-

KS: Dee-Lite is out of The Pyramid, I mean that's where they started their first performances.

PZ: And I guess the legacy that The Pyramid might have endowed to New York is the famous Wigstock.

I think you better tell us what Wigstock actually is.

PZ: [laughs] It's a very beautiful thing.

KS: [laughs] Wigstock is basically, uh . . . it's for Lower East Side performance artists. Once a year, for an entire afternoon starting at about two in the afternoon to ten in the evening, Pyramid Club was renting out Tompkins Square Park, which is like directly, diagonally across the street, and would do a parody of Woodstock, but call it Wigstock. Everybody-I'm talking about hundreds of people-would come dressed up with wigs. Everybody has a wig; if you don't have a wig you're square, what are you doing here? And you would have everything from rock & roll bands to female impersonators to-

PZ: To some real females.

KS: -to real females, on stage for an entire afternoon. The M.C. is a fabulous lady, Bunny, who introduced all the various acts throughout the day. The first Wigstock the Love Delegation performed; we were very successful, I remember.

PZ: That's true.

KS: There was a movie, even, a very super eight film, hand-held-camera movie called Wigstock.

PZ: Wigstock-The Movie.

KS: It's about, I don't know, forty minutes long. It's great.

PZ: So, if any of you are in New York City next September-what we [in the U.S.] call Labor Day Weekend-come down to the Lower East Side for an afternoon of peace and love, and drag queens.

And what sort of wigs do The Fleshtones don for an event like this?

PZ: I like a buofant, or a Vidal Sasoon approach. [laughter]

I understand, Keith, a lot of these riffs come from your somewhat legendary Riff Catalog, or Riff Archives. Can you explain exactly what this is?

PZ: Keith, tell 'em about your Riff Archive Vault.

KS: Oh, man. Letters "A" through "Z". Whatever type of music you're looking for. We're talking about a big vault full of a lot of file cabinets full of a lot of really groovy-cool supercharged riffs.

PZ: So, let's say Keith comes and he says, "Look, I have these riffs," and he plays these riffs and then he says, "Let's call it 'I Can Breathe'." And I say, "Well, wait a minute-"

KS: He looks at me and goes, like, "You're not underwater?" [laughter] PZ: And then I go off and try to write lyrics for it, and in this case I succeed, and then we have a song, and a nice song, too. Another song which reflects the sensitive side of The Fleshtones, I might add.

KS: There is a more sensitive side.

PZ: [quietly] Yes.

Most people in Australia would have absolutely no idea what you mean when you say you grew up in Queens and there is a "Queens Sensibility." What exactly is it?

KS: There's New York City and you have five boroughs. Everybody is generally into Manhattan, that's where everything's happening, but you have the boroughs around where all the lunatics grew up, like us. I tell you, like, The Ramones are from Queens, Dictators are from Queens, some of the members of Television were from Queens, and The Fleshtone are from Queens.

PZ: Right, and a lot of the [New York] Dolls.

KS: A lot of the Dolls. I think even people from, like, even groups as horrible as Kiss, but, um . . . .

PZ: [laughing] Kiss was from Queens.

KS: They are, they are! They played at The Coventry, you know, they were a bunch of, you know, Jewish guys from Queens.

PZ: Definitely.

So what is it about Queens that breeds rock & roll musicians?

PZ: I think the only thing that breeds rock & roll musicians, is just, there's a lot of people there, so out of all those people-

KS: Right, somebody's gotta do something.

PZ: Right.

KS: I don't know about the other boroughs, but in Queens we were the people that were meant to do something.

PZ: Right. It's a bedroom borough, they call it, and it's just a bunch of bored people.

KS: Also a lot of garages for bands to rehearse in.

PZ: Ah ha! And basements.

KS: And basements. I prefer a garage, you know you can get sunlight.

PZ: But we had a basement.

KS: [laughing] Yeah. You know.

PZ: We made do.

What do you find more comfortable as far as playing is concerned, the small clubs like The Pyramid-small, sweaty bars-or would you prefer bigger shows in front of thousands of people?

KS: Well, I guess it depends, but usually the smaller clubs are the ones that really hit home, you know the connection is easily made between us and the audience, you know, those shows usually go out of control and go berserk, and I think that's what people want from us, and that's what rock & roll should be about, anyway.

PZ: Although I should say that when we do play to the large audiences we manage to get it across, you know? We're not afraid of a big audience, and I think even in the festival situation, which I don't think is ideal, we do pretty good.

One of the things that's always impressed me about The Fleshtones is that you know how to entertain. Your live show is not just a case of standing on stage like statues, and just going through the motions, playing the songs. Is this a deliberate attempt on your part to constantly entertain and move on stage and make it more than just a re-creation of what people have already heard?

KS: I think it's what we feel. I mean, I can't imagine just standing there playing, 'cause then it would mean I'm not really feeling anything, and if I'm not feeling anything I shouldn't be doing this to start with. So you just let it go, and when things click, when you know the band's playing well, it just, you know, takes off. And it feels great.

PZ: Entertain yourself, and all shall follow.